May 20, 2012, 10:49:27 AM

Author Topic: Do we even need a adj FPR?  (Read 300 times)

Andy

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    • 1990
    • Talon TSI AWD
    • Motor: 4G63 2.0L
    • Head: 1G (large ports)
    • Turbo: FP3575
Do we even need a adj FPR?
« on: October 30, 2011, 12:19:31 PM »
Who here runs no adj FPR.  I was thinking about it and do we even need one considering were re-tune the whole VE map? 

Ohh and BTW my car made 460hp 380 tourq at 25psi on Werewolf.  No vids tho.

hakcenter

  • dev team
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    • 2006
    • Other
    • Motor: 4G63 2.0L
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Re: Do we even need a adj FPR?
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2011, 01:33:37 PM »
You could always try to tune it out, just not a good idea IMHO.

Controllable fuel is dependable  8;)
AMP 2 Corinthians 8:21
For we take thought beforehand and aim to be honest and absolutely above suspicion, not only in the sight of the Lord but also in the sight of men.


Mr Peepers

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  • Matt Morrison
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Re: Do we even need a adj FPR?
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2011, 04:18:17 PM »
The deciding factor for me was when driveability started to suffer from overrun/high fuel pressure at cruise and idle with larger injectors.

1000's didn't care about high fuel pressure and operated normally.  No odd misfires or stumbles and a steady idle.

1200's would idle noticeably worse and tended to die/surge a bit after pushing in the clutch especially when the idle was lower than 900-1000 rpm.  Light throttle when cruising it would have a light stumble/misfire at certain throttle positions.  Drove me CRAZY.  Very picky with AFR's(didn't like low pulsewidths)

I don't know what the fuel pressure was when overrunning but after getting it back down to 43.5psi base pressure and actually having the vacuum reference lower the pressure at light load it was a night and day difference.  No odd sounding idle, easier starts, smooth cruising and no weird transitions when cruising.

If it wasn't for that, I'd still be rocking a stock fpr.  I really couldn't care less about the fact you can adjust fuel pressure  :P
Stock 6 bolt, 272/272, 7 blade HX35 w/ twin scroll manifold, old unknown name top to bottom FMIC, 1200's, single 255, e85, LC-1.

HX35- 10.57@128.9 QTP Auto/10.9@135.9 street tire 28psi
16g-   11.2@123.5 on 23 psi and QTPs
14b-   12.00@115.6 on street tires

Airmail96

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Long post
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2011, 11:44:27 AM »
I actually got into an arguement with someone over this same issue.  It basically came out to you don't really need one as long as you can tune around it. 

Precision control of fuel flow, through the injector and into the engine, is the primary purpose of your electronically controlled fuel injection system.  The actual rate of flow through the injector depends on 3-key variables, including:

 1.) Nozzle size (lb/hr or cc/min rating, i.e. how big is the hole in the outlet end).

2.) Pulse Width (how long the hole is held open by the ECU, may be termed “duty cycle” when open time is expressed as a percentage of the time it takes a 4-cycle engine to make two revolutions at a given RPM).

3.) Delta Pressure (the difference between the pressure at the inlet end of the injector, i.e. fuel rail pressure, and the outlet end of the injector, i.e. manifold pressure).

 A key part of the equation is earth’s atmosphere has weight.  As measured in Pounds Per Square Inch (PSI), at sea level, the average is 14.5 PSI (also called 1-Bar in metric terms).  With that in mind, the injector in a port fuel injection engine lives in a two pressure environment, one side in the fuel rail, and the other in the intake manifold runner.

 Once the injector nozzle is selected and installed, the flow rate per millisecond of open time is fixed.  The same goes for fuel pressure, once the base pressure is set, and the regulator vacuum/boost port connected to the intake, the Delta Pressure is fixed.  And this is the point of using a 1:1 regulator with vacuum/boost reference.  As the engine runs at light load and during deceleration, vacuum builds in the intake manifold, acting to make fuel flow through the injector easier, but the referenced regulator drops fuel pressure in the rail in the exact same amount, at the same time, preserving the delta pressure across the injector and assuring the flow rate per millisecond of open time does not change.  Conversely, when the intake manifold sees boost the, the air pressure in the intake acts to appose fuel flow through the injector, reducing the flow rate per millisecond, but the boost referenced regulator increases fuel rail pressure, once again preserving the injector flow rate.

 With this in mind, the only thing that actually changes the injector flow rate into the engine is what?  Injector open time, which is the only thing the PCM can actually control.  Using a referenced regulator then puts the PCM in full control of engine fueling.

 Today’s returnless fuel systems often do not have the benefit of a vacuum/boost reference to the regulator.  When this is not available a recalibration of the PCM must be made in an attempt to compensate.  Unfortunately, there is a limit to how much compensating can be made for an injector that gets larger in vacuum and smaller under boost.  This is a particular problem in a boosted engine because the injector flows less and less as the boost goes higher and higher.  For this reason, beyond 500-650 HP forced induction, a boost referenced fuel system is virtually a must.  Boosted or naturally aspirated engines will all drive better and cleaner, with less programming fuss, using a vacuum reference.

Brett Clow

Aeromotive, Inc.

7805 Barton St.

Lenexa, KS  66214

913-647-7300  Ext. 109


Jason
Stock motor, small16g, stock smic, -6an feed line, walboro 255

Future: FP2s, T/S HX-40 (8-Blade), Red Jack Racing T/S Manifold, FMIC, Tial Q, Hawver Intake Manifold, Walboro 255lph x2, Fuel Pump Rewire, Tial MV-S x2.  HE351Ve VGT(on the back burner),

Airmail96

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Re: Do we even need a adj FPR?
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2011, 11:46:09 AM »
Yes, the regulator is there to maintain a specific “delta” pressure, regardless of manifold pressure, so the injector isn’t getting larger when the engine is at low load (flowing more fuel per millisecond of open time) and smaller at high load (flowing less per millisecond).

 The “adjustable” factor is of course to enable a variable, albeit constant once adjusted, “delta” pressure in the fuel rail.

 The problems you would run into are essentially outlined in the first paragraph above, where at light load the fuel delivered per millisecond would be increasing as vacuum increases, and at heavy load the fuel delivered per millisecond would be decreasing as vacuum is diminished and then even more as boost develops, if that applies.

Ultimately, you’ll see “returnless systems”, which are in fact return systems but with the regulator in the back of the car, forced to run much higher base fuel pressure to compensate for the latter above, and then the fuel map must be modified in an attempt to compensate for the lack of vacuum reference at lower loads.

 Its not impossible to work around, but it is just that, a work-around.
Hope that helps, let us know if you need further assistance and thanks for choosing Aeromotive!

 Brett Clow
Aeromotive, Inc.
7805 Barton St.
Lenexa, KS  66214
913-647-7300  Ext. 109

Jason
Stock motor, small16g, stock smic, -6an feed line, walboro 255

Future: FP2s, T/S HX-40 (8-Blade), Red Jack Racing T/S Manifold, FMIC, Tial Q, Hawver Intake Manifold, Walboro 255lph x2, Fuel Pump Rewire, Tial MV-S x2.  HE351Ve VGT(on the back burner),

Airmail96

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last one
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2011, 11:48:47 AM »
Hi Jason,
I assume by your response that you have some type of boosted application.  That being said, let’s say at a static fuel rail pressure of 65psi,  if you have large enough injectors to handle the max hp desired at max boost then no, you do not need a boost adjusting pressure regulator. 

 The idea behind the boost regulator is as the boost increases the fuel pressure increases, this allows the injector to behave as if it was a larger lb/hr injector at boost then at one pressure set point.  This adjustable regulator pressure also allows you to run smaller injectors that could have better manners at idle and street driving but still have enough capacity to deliver the quantity of fuel desired at high hp demands via increased injector rail pressure.  I guess it’s pick your poison bigger costlier injectors with set point pressure regulator, or perhaps, less costly injectors with a boost regulated fuel pressure

Virginia Speed, Inc.
1397 Taylor Farm Road,
Virginia Beach, VA 23453
757-468-5101

Sorry for all the long post but just wanted to show replies I got from reputable sources on the issue lol.
Jason
Stock motor, small16g, stock smic, -6an feed line, walboro 255

Future: FP2s, T/S HX-40 (8-Blade), Red Jack Racing T/S Manifold, FMIC, Tial Q, Hawver Intake Manifold, Walboro 255lph x2, Fuel Pump Rewire, Tial MV-S x2.  HE351Ve VGT(on the back burner),

AlphaVision

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Re: Do we even need a adj FPR?
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2011, 07:56:48 AM »
Great info, Jason. No worries about post lengths when they are full of useful info  :clap
99 GS body (Euro spec)
97 GSX drivetrain
91 ECU
6 bolt long block

Faster Mitsubishi club Bulgaria

Airmail96

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Re: Do we even need a adj FPR?
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2011, 10:37:25 AM »
 ;D no problem I am just glad to share information if I have it, nothing like making this place the best it can be :-). 
Jason
Stock motor, small16g, stock smic, -6an feed line, walboro 255

Future: FP2s, T/S HX-40 (8-Blade), Red Jack Racing T/S Manifold, FMIC, Tial Q, Hawver Intake Manifold, Walboro 255lph x2, Fuel Pump Rewire, Tial MV-S x2.  HE351Ve VGT(on the back burner),